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Post by aldebaran on Jun 6, 2021 1:17:18 GMT
Hello everyone,
I have been a Linux enthusiast for several years, although I am still technically a beginner, because I have always chosen "easy" distros for reasons of limited free time, and therefore I do not have much experience.
I have recently installed Bodhi on an old Eeepc with 970MB of RAM, to try to give it new life after a few years of drawer and therefore I was looking for a light and not very resource hungry distro.
I was amazed at how the machine can be used quite well, of course without exaggerating in opening applications. Everything works fine, no problem. I believe there are very few distros that can succeed in such a feat. In addition, the appearance is pleasant and well cared for and gives the impression of something fresh and "clean" ... So congratulations to the developers for the excellent work. I really like the possibility of reusing old hardware, otherwise destined for waste.
I hope that the daily use remains up to what we have seen so far, because in a while I intend to install Bodhi on another much more modern machine. T
To conclude, I would ask, if possible, the reasons that led to choosing systemd as an init system instead of runit or openrc or others much more KISS. This is a topic that has always fascinated me, so thanks in advance for the possible answer and congratulations again!
George
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Post by Hippytaff on Jun 6, 2021 7:34:41 GMT
Hey Alderbaran
Welcome to the forums and community. It’s great Bodhi is working out for you. I’m not a dev so won’t comment on the systemd decision, but hope you enjoy bodhi
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wimc
Moderator 
Forum Custodian
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Post by wimc on Jun 6, 2021 22:52:58 GMT
Welcome to the forum.
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Post by oblio on Jun 7, 2021 16:51:58 GMT
Hello and welcome!
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cooler
Crew Member
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Post by cooler on Jun 7, 2021 20:19:09 GMT
Salve!
I'm no developer but the logical answer for using systemd is that Bodhi is based on Ubuntu and Ubuntu uses systemd.
Going with the rumours Bodhi Legacy is going to be based on Debian as Ubuntu no longer has 32 bit support.
It would be a cool idea to use another sysinit so have the Legacy based on Devuan instead of Debian. I'm not sure if it's more work for Ylee/ Stefan but I think it would be cool to use Devuan.
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Post by ylee on Jun 8, 2021 8:53:08 GMT
Hello aldebaran Welcome to the forums and much thanks for Praise. ... To conclude, I would ask, if possible, the reasons that led to choosing systemd as an init system instead of runit or openrc or others much more KISS. This is a topic that has always fascinated me, so thanks in advance for the possible answer and congratulations again! George I am hardly an expert in all the ins and outs of systemd vs the more KISS init systems. So I admit there is a chance I may not fully know what I am talking about here. But I am lead dev around here, so Bodhi ends up being whatever I put on the ISOs. Philosophically speaking from what I read and understand, I side with the 'grey beards' on the systemd controversy. Systemd breaks with Unix tradition. But times change and traditions change and systemd is here to stay like it or not. I have used and examined recent non-systemd systems/Distros, and yes I miss also miss the simplicity of the old init systems. I haven't fully tested it but I certainly would expect a non-systemd system is perform a little faster and use less memory. Would it be enough to matter I don't know. And every so often I get asked about why Bodhi has went with systemd instead of joining the 'resistance.' Simply put, we are Ubuntu based and rely upon the Ubuntu repositories for apps and libraries we don't package in our own repository. Ubuntu uses systemd. Sure I could strip it out and replace it on Bodhi. But everything in Ubuntu's repo that has systemd as a compile option has been compiled with systemd support. How well all these apps and libraries would work if systemd were not present, I don't know. Some would probably be ok, while others would certainly be problematic. Void linux for example uses the runit init system and patches way too many applications and stuff to work properly. That is only going to get worse as systemd is clearly the future and more and more applications are going to not only support it but require it. And some apps that supported the 'old-school' init systems may drop that support in the future. Applications and libraries in Ubuntu's repository have been well tested. Nearly all are drawn from Debian and tested there as well. Both Ubuntu and Debian make minor patches to stuff to satisfy their needs and standards. And everything has been tested with systemd installed and configured however Ubuntu/Debian sets that up by default. Switching to 'old-school' init systems and we would lose the 'well tested' and probably is going to work advantage of using Ubuntu's repo. And for problematic packages, it would fall on us to fix it and place a fixed package in our repo. In all likelihood, "fall on us" would end up meaning fall on me to figure out. Advanced users are free to do what they want to do with Bodhi and that includes replacing systemd if they see fit. But advanced users don't bother us for support. Other users need to be aware of the fact we do not support that kind of thing and you are on your own if you try it. So my answer to why did we choose systemd is that we did not, Ubuntu did and we are just going with the flow. I see little advantage in fighting it only more work for our already over-worked team. |
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Post by aldebaran on Jun 8, 2021 20:38:46 GMT
Ciao aldebaran Benvenuto nel forum e grazie mille per le lodi.... Per concludere vorrei chiedere, se possibile, le ragioni che hanno portato a scegliere systemd come sistema init invece di runit o openrc o altri molto più KISS. Questo è un argomento che mi ha sempre affascinato, quindi grazie in anticipo per l'eventuale risposta e complimenti ancora! Giorgio Grazie per la risposta dettagliata e per il tempo necessario a scriverla. Capisco la motivazione che ha guidato la scelta, di fatto sistemd è il futuro |
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Post by aldebaran on Jun 8, 2021 21:11:30 GMT
Hello aldebaran Welcome to the forums and much thanks for Praise. ... To conclude, I would ask, if possible, the reasons that led to choosing systemd as an init system instead of runit or openrc or others much more KISS. This is a topic that has always fascinated me, so thanks in advance for the possible answer and congratulations again! George I am hardly an expert in all the ins and outs of systemd vs the more KISS init systems. So I admit there is a chance I may not fully know what I am talking about here. But I am lead dev around here, so Bodhi ends up being whatever I put on the ISOs. Philosophically speaking from what I read and understand, I side with the 'grey beards' on the systemd controversy. Systemd breaks with Unix tradition. But times change and traditions change and systemd is here to stay like it or not. I have used and examined recent non-systemd systems/Distros, and yes I miss also miss the simplicity of the old init systems. I haven't fully tested it but I certainly would expect a non-systemd system is perform a little faster and use less memory. Would it be enough to matter I don't know. And every so often I get asked about why Bodhi has went with systemd instead of joining the 'resistance.' Simply put, we are Ubuntu based and rely upon the Ubuntu repositories for apps and libraries we don't package in our own repository. Ubuntu uses systemd. Sure I could strip it out and replace it on Bodhi. But everything in Ubuntu's repo that has systemd as a compile option has been compiled with systemd support. How well all these apps and libraries would work if systemd were not present, I don't know. Some would probably be ok, while others would certainly be problematic. Void linux for example uses the runit init system and patches way too many applications and stuff to work properly. That is only going to get worse as systemd is clearly the future and more and more applications are going to not only support it but require it. And some apps that supported the 'old-school' init systems may drop that support in the future. Applications and libraries in Ubuntu's repository have been well tested. Nearly all are drawn from Debian and tested there as well. Both Ubuntu and Debian make minor patches to stuff to satisfy their needs and standards. And everything has been tested with systemd installed and configured however Ubuntu/Debian sets that up by default. Switching to 'old-school' init systems and we would lose the 'well tested' and probably is going to work advantage of using Ubuntu's repo. And for problematic packages, it would fall on us to fix it and place a fixed package in our repo. In all likelihood, "fall on us" would end up meaning fall on me to figure out. Advanced users are free to do what they want to do with Bodhi and that includes replacing systemd if they see fit. But advanced users don't bother us for support. Other users need to be aware of the fact we do not support that kind of thing and you are on your own if you try it. So my answer to why did we choose systemd is that we did not, Ubuntu did and we are just going with the flow. I see little advantage in fighting it only more work for our already over-worked team. Thank you for the detailed answer and for taking the time to write it. I understand the motivation that drove the choice: in fact sistemd is the future because almost all the distros use it, and so everything - even technically in the development of programs - goes in that direction. So I ask myself the consequent logical question: why is it so used? Does it have such big and obvious advantages over the old systems? And if not, then what could it be due to? Thanks again for the interesting virtual chat. |
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Post by Hippytaff on Jun 8, 2021 21:23:21 GMT
From what I have read the systemd controversy is just as much a "moral" one as a technical one. In a nut shell, some believe systemd doesn't follow "Linux/Unix" way, in terms of complexity etc. And as you kind of mentioned distro devs and maintainers are kind of forced to stick with systemd as a result of programs kind of being developed with systemd in mind, so almost tweaked to favor it.
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enigma9o7
Crew Member
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Post by enigma9o7 on Jun 9, 2021 4:42:58 GMT
One of the things I really like about bodhi is the distro doesn't seem to limit you in any way, in that its compatible with all the normal stuff I expect one would hope to work on their computer. Whereas of almost every distro I've tried that actually uses less resources than bodhi, they make some compromises or do things in a not so standard way (as debian/ubuntu base), which limit them in some way compared to Bodhi. I'm not saying those distros are bad for people who understand what they are, but Bodhi is great for what I want; I can run normal modern software (even on old hardware) without worrying about something weird about the distro that is likely to make it incompatible or not even packaged, etc.
And welcome aldebaran!
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Post by aldebaran on Jun 9, 2021 21:45:33 GMT
Thanks to everyone who answered me.
Happy to join the crew.
Have a nice time.
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