gatton
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Post by gatton on Oct 13, 2021 23:27:13 GMT
Hey folks, I've installed E24 on a Debian VM and am enjoying using it. I was surprised it isn't more different from Moksha. I assumed between E17 and 24 there would be more changes but maybe the changes are on the back end? Anyway I am curious if E24 and Moksha can be run side-by-side like having other desktops installed? Or will there be files that interfere with each other?
TBH I'm not actually all that interested in doing this as Moksha does everything I want and I haven't found a compelling reason for running E24 instead. Like I say I was just curious if the two desktops (despite being so similar) would play nicely with each other?
Has anyone tried it?
Thanks.
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Post by thewaiter on Oct 14, 2021 5:45:52 GMT
Hello I tried a co-existence of Moksha along E24 in the past. I ended with messed system and needed to uninstall e24 if not reinstalling the whole Bodhi (not sure). I discussed with Ylee about it and it should be doable but with some environment settings I am not aware of. Ylee, could you say more here? Stefan EDIT: yes, E24 is very different in the backend. They reworked the e17 widget toolkit completely to the Elementary (elm) widget kit , they use the native compositor which is broken in e17. Moreover they added a support for Wayland protocol and e24 also provides better windows tiling feature. The E team was always bigger than the Moksha team and includes Raster, the main E developer and also E founder and creator. The main difference is in number of maintained themes where Moksha counts around 20 and you can find tens if not hundreds e17 ones over Internet, while there are only several for E24. Ylee ported many E commits towards to Moksha stability but frontend features may differ in some ways. We listen our users more  Many of my or ylee's Moksha contributions are unique and you will not find them in E24. |
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Post by ylee on Oct 14, 2021 12:27:07 GMT
... Like I say I was just curious if the two desktops (despite being so similar) would play nicely with each other?
Has anyone tried it?
Thanks.
As Moksha is currently coded it is a bit of a challenge to make the two desktops play nicely together. First of all they have to be installed to different locations. Even then you have the issue they both use the file /etc/enlightenment/sysactions.conf so you must ensure this file works with both e24 and moksha. Ok if you have made it that far then you have the issue of moksha's and enlightenments config files. By default this is at ~/.e in both cases. I usually just use a different user for each desktop. If you log into e24 using moksha's ~/.e folder e24 will 'trash it' and vice versa of course. There may be other ways of dealing with this issue. Then you have various other misc issues like which command enlightenment_remote runs when typed into a terminal. This will be determined by your PATH variable. Similarly if you compile Moksha or Enlightenment modules you need to consider which header files pkg-config will pick up on and if it is the wrong set of header files adjust your PKG_CONFIG_PATH. So it can be accomplished. I do it myself. But the 'average user' may have problems getting that set up correctly and then maybe problems using it. So all in all I do not recommend it. |
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ligoxi
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Post by ligoxi on Oct 15, 2021 17:55:25 GMT
Am i wrong to believe that e24 is also heavyweight at least more than moksha?
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enigma9o7
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Post by enigma9o7 on Oct 16, 2021 3:58:50 GMT
Yes, you'd be wrong. Enlightenment is similarly lightweight too. There is a bodhi 6 alpha iso with enlightenment (instead of moksha) that was made available to testers quite a while ago you could check out to see... or maybe @gotton can share results from 'neofetch' or 'free' or something from his debian VM with e24, but I suspect its low, probably somewhere 150-250mb like moksha.
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ligoxi
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Post by ligoxi on Oct 16, 2021 7:49:46 GMT
Regularly malloc_trim if available to keep mem down. From e24 announcement, seems to be a nice feature. Still though i have concerns about e24 stability. My belief, perhaps i am again wrong, never had the chance to test it on my pc. What i do not understand: we use latest efl libraries. Arc green imho looks much better than e24 default theme. I haven't had not a single issue so far with moksha. Performance wise pretty happy. If Ylee can port the features he believes should also be in moksha then why someone should choose e24 over moksha? To be honest i do not know why wayland support is something important for us users... Everybody loves new features and better performance. But my feel is that e24 will not add to my perfect so far experience i have with moksha. A friend of mine suffers from crushes, frequent crashes using ubuntu 20.04 lts with current hardware. New hardware. Also had serious problems installing the os. I do not own so current hardware so i cannot understand why nowadays it is so difficult to have control and freedom on hardware one has paid for. To conclude. I continue with my current hardware and with moksha as far as my machines work and as far as Ylee and Stefan and the whole bodhi team have the kindness and will to offer us their time, their expertise for providing and updating an os that does the job in a genius way. Of course kudos to enlightment team hope moksha is a fork that has best of both worlds. Ylee and Stefan features along with the best features Ylee believes worth to be ported to moksha. Taking into account the short free time both devs have perhaps i suggested too much.
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Post by thewaiter on Oct 16, 2021 8:33:49 GMT
I have always segfaults in VM with E24. Never tested on real HW. But yes, E24 is as light as Moksha. Anyway, I hate the E24 systray. The module behaviour is written better on the shelf than our Moksha's one but in the background it supports appindicator over xembed protocol. It means many linux apps are not supported and can not see the icons on the tray. What I like in E24 is iBar with combined taskbar also with live app content preview. This is very hard to port to Moksha so maybe my another programming challenge. Unfortunately as I explained many times, all these Moksha changes are hand in hand with the theme scripting. It means I will need to add the feature into all maintained themes which increases my work load. Maybe I will think about it in BL 7 if not BL 8 era. Very hard to do. BTW, thanx for your positive receptioon ligoxi . The good examples the Moksha is different than E24 are my last features like Notification actions, Taksbar labels, Mouse gestures to maximize/restore windows and much more. E24 lacks them. Simply we work our way. Ylee is a great main dev who gives me the freedom of my code choice. As I said, we listen users carefully and add features to have great and stable OS. S |
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ligoxi
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Post by ligoxi on Oct 16, 2021 20:36:17 GMT
"Regularly malloc_trim if available to keep mem down. From e24 announcement, seems to be a nice feature" Ylee's github shows that's just been implemented... Hope this is a feature useful for all users since i just mentioned it to continue conversation for something that made an impression to me but for sure not asking for it since i am way less tech savvy to make any decisions on how devs time should be spent. Great appreciation for this feature which was so fast added
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Post by ylee on Oct 17, 2021 13:53:09 GMT
"Regularly malloc_trim if available to keep mem down. From e24 announcement, seems to be a nice feature" Ylee's github shows that's just been implemented... Hope this is a feature useful for all users since i just mentioned it to continue conversation for something that made an impression to me but for sure not asking for it since i am way less tech savvy to make any decisions on how devs time should be spent. Great appreciation for this feature which was so fast added Yeah I added the malloc_trim stuff. It was already on a list I keep on stuff I want to either backport or at least examine closely. It is one of those commits that the end user will really not notice (unless of course it breaks something or otherwise causes issues). If you leave moksha running for a long time then memory usage should stay a little lower. In theory. I am not going to test the 'theory.' But I am using moksha from that commit (with malloc_trim) just to verify it causes me no additional issues. It shouldn't cause any problems as all it is doing is running malloc_trim at two different points in the code. If there are no issues then this will be in the next update of moksha whenever I get around to repackaging it. |
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ligoxi
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Post by ligoxi on Oct 17, 2021 16:01:58 GMT
I am the kind of person that makes strong bonds with people but with material things that have been with me for some time. This is the case with moksha and i consider you as my friends and i am grateful for the gift... Open source is a miracle and as i know more about your hard work i will stop laughing with comments from people under a review. I am afraid i will be either angry or sad with how much people have the same behavior with software like they do with people. Hate everything that does not look like "normal" to their perception... www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Enlightenment-0.24-ReleasedIf you see the comments there raster wastes time to answer regarding fonts... No need imho we move on |
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Post by ylee on Oct 17, 2021 17:03:25 GMT
Of all the things to complain about in e24 some users picked the appearance of fonts. LMAO. And yes Raster gets defensive of his pet projects (EFL and e). I have already heard Rasters rant on fonts and font rendering methods and why EFL renders fonts the way it does. Actually in much more detail than he gives in the comments there. But the significant point is: Maybe using 2 to 3 times as memory per character displayed does not matter to some but Raster and the e-devs nearly always considering memory usage is one of the reasons enlightenment (and moksha) has such a low mem footprint. I don't mind the appearance of fonts on Bodhi or e and in fact barely even notice a difference between the way they look there vs the way they look on some other WM/DE. Much ado about nothing me thinks  |
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gatton
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Post by gatton on Oct 27, 2021 1:02:07 GMT
Yes, you'd be wrong. Enlightenment is similarly lightweight too. There is a bodhi 6 alpha iso with enlightenment (instead of moksha) that was made available to testers quite a while ago you could check out to see... or maybe @gotton can share results from 'neofetch' or 'free' or something from his debian VM with e24, but I suspect its low, probably somewhere 150-250mb like moksha. Hi enigma. I'm sorry I didn't notice you suggested posting the memory usage under Debian/VM/e24. Here is the result of that. This is after a reboot with no applications (other than Terminology) running.
Attachments:
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ligoxi
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Post by ligoxi on Oct 27, 2021 13:31:10 GMT
I always have 200mb with ubuntu bl6 standard. So since my pc and laptops are to me like a car that i need it as feather lightweight possible so i leave ie not any other seats but the driver's. The tyres are for racing slick. My car is a very good muscled car but bought a few years ago. For my usage on normal civilian roads and with the snappy engine (moksha) i feel i do not need a new car. I do not own a car all the above are just an example of how i see my case with bl. Hope ylee and Stefan do their best in making my car engine (ubuntu) and my car's weight light (moksha). If i am not wrong Ylee works hard in stripping down the base of ubuntu we use. Hope my health allows me to be around for some more time...
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gatton
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Post by gatton on Oct 28, 2021 0:32:48 GMT
Agreed ligoxi. My PC has 16GB of ram. I don't necessarily NEED a desktop that runs in 200MB but I like having that ram available for applications. Plus everything is so snappy and it's just satisfying. On a personal note I hope everything is ok. My health is very poor. So good luck and long life to us both!
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ligoxi
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Post by ligoxi on Oct 28, 2021 7:44:11 GMT
Dear gatton my best wishes to our struggle. Although an old bl user having to obligatory slow down due to health issues gave me time to know more about the people behind the os that allowed me to work without any issues and nowadays that i stay long periods in the house the os and community is my "friend" by my side. Hope the following makes you smile. You sound like my friends that i promote bl 6 how awesome and resource lean it is... The answer? Leave us alone we have 32 gb of ram we like heavyweight distros... We like to tease each other for issues like this |
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Many of my or ylee's Moksha contributions are unique and you will not find them in E24. 
