mimi
Member
Posts: 38
Likes: 28
|
Post by mimi on May 27, 2021 7:21:33 GMT
Below are data for RAM consumption for different LTS kernels on BL6, 64-bit. The hardware used was an Asus X71Q laptop (made in 2007), specifications: dual-core (2GHz), Pentium T3200, 64-bit; 4GB installed RAM (maximum permitted); 17" display with Intel Mobile 4 Series Integrated Graphics. Measurements were made with htop, 3 minutes following booting to allow the system to stabilise. Kernels were installed using the app mainline - this app is very easy to install and use, and full instructions are given elsewhere by enigma9o7 at bodhilinux.boards.net/thread/575/improving-performance-bl6?page=2The time of expiry of support for each LTS kernel is shown in brackets, taken from www.kernel.org/category/releases.html : 5.10.35 - 207MB (Dec 2026) 5.4.0.72 - 217MB (Dec 2025) 4.19.192 - 226MB (Dec 2024) 4.14.215 - 208MB (Jan 2024) 4.9.270 - 222MB (Jan 2023) 4.4.267 - 195MB (Feb 2022) Originally, I had tested 5.10 and 5.8 on antiX (Debian-based), but they had failed to work, merely booting to a blank screen. This left me with the feeling that when support for 5.4 expires in 2025, my laptop will become obsolete. However, the data shows that 5.10 works well with BL6, so the laptop has at least another 5 years to go. You can see that there isn't much difference in RAM consumption, between the lowest and highest value (31MB). Apart from small differences in RAM, there was a slight improvement in graphics between say 5.4 and 4.4, i.e. a little less blurring of window edges when dragging windows across the Desktop, though I'm inclined to think that much of this is down to an ageing GPU ! Do you think this ageing laptop is suitable for the HWE version of BL6? At the moment I have the standard version installed. |
|
kiezel
Crew Member
Posts: 143
Likes: 220
|
Post by kiezel on May 27, 2021 8:24:52 GMT
A couple of remarks. First of all, you don't need a foreign application from some PPA for installing mainline kernels. The Kernel Manager contained in Bodhi's mintupdate can do that as well (see the Expert tab in the Preferences of mintupdate). Secondly, I strongly discourage using vanilla mainline kernels. Mainline kernels are not supported by Bodhi or Ubuntu, and are not reliable enough for everyday use. Furthermore: as these are pure upstream kernels from kernel.org, they do not include any Ubuntu-specific drivers or patches, nor any proprietary modules or restricted binary drivers. Even if you know how to boot from an older kernel in case of kernel failure: you risk losing important work because of an unstable and unreliable kernel. Even worse things may happen: for example, certain mainline kernels of the 4.19 series corrupted EXT4 filesystems, which caused irrecoverable data loss: www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=EXT4-Linux-4.19-Corruption |
|
mimi
Member
Posts: 38
Likes: 28
|
Post by mimi on May 27, 2021 12:13:31 GMT
kiezelThis too, is all new to me. Using Linux is much scarier than I thought ...
|
|
kiezel
Crew Member
Posts: 143
Likes: 220
|
Post by kiezel on May 27, 2021 12:34:58 GMT
kiezelThis too, is all new to me. Using Linux is much scarier than I thought ... Not scary at all, if you select a stable and reliable distro like Bodhi and don't experiment too much with it.  There are 10 fatal mistakes you'll wish to avoid in Bodhi, Mint and Ubuntu: easylinuxtipsproject.blogspot.com/p/fatal-mistakes.htmlIf you keep that in mind, your Bodhi Linux will run as stable and reliable as a ship's diesel engine. |
|
enigma9o7
Crew Member
Posts: 1,427 
Likes: 1,336
|
Post by enigma9o7 on May 27, 2021 14:26:09 GMT
A couple of remarks. First of all, you don't need a foreign application from some PPA for installing mainline kernels. The Kernel Manager contained in Bodhi's mintupdate can do that as well (see the Expert tab in the Preferences of mintupdate). Secondly, I strongly discourage using vanilla mainline kernels. Mainline kernels are not supported by Bodhi or Ubuntu, and are not reliable enough for everyday use. Furthermore: as these are pure upstream kernels from kernel.org, they do not include any Ubuntu-specific drivers or patches, nor any proprietary modules or restricted binary drivers. Even if you know how to boot from an older kernel in case of kernel failure: you risk losing important work because of an unstable and unreliable kernel. Even worse things may happen: for example, certain mainline kernels of the 4.19 series corrupted EXT4 filesystems, which caused irrecoverable data loss: www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=EXT4-Linux-4.19-Corruption
First of all, you're referencing an article over two years old. 4.19 is on the 192nd point release, I find it unlikely there's are filesystem bugs. This kernel also has SLTS (super long term support) so even after regular support ends in 2024, there's 5 more years of updates after that.
Second of all, you may not need a GUI application to do it, but it makes it easy. Not everyone wants to install or figure out how to use mintudpdate which is much more bloated for the purpose of installing a kernel than mainline! But to each his own, I see you promoting mintupdate all the time and know you love it, but that doesnt mean other solutions arent just as good or possibly better. To each his own. Some may just wanna download debs and install with apt, thats fine too, and certainly better, just not as easy.
And your "fatal mistakes" I've seen before but its full of exaturation and opinion. For example I've been using grub customizer for years and years and works fine for me (and is included in focal repos btw).. You may not like simple GUI apps. They are not FATAL as that implies it kills something. Not everything in your list is a MISTAKE. You're just trying to scare people into doing things your way, without realizing there are lots of ways to do the same thing, and your way is not better than others. When you present your way of doingthings as an alternative or idea or the way you do it, its fine, but I strongly dislike the way you critisize others or try to scare people with ancient information.
|
|
kiezel
Crew Member
Posts: 143
Likes: 220
|
Post by kiezel on May 27, 2021 14:48:12 GMT
First of all, you're referencing an article over two years old. The age of the article doesn't matter: it's just an illustration of the general risk of running mainline kernels that haven't been sifted through the sieve of the Ubuntu kernel developers. It's an example. The checks and general magic done by those guys are an extra layer of safety for us end users. As the kernel is the very core of your operating system, this is important. Just how important it may get, is illustrated by the article I referenced. Second of all, you may not need a GUI application to do it, but it makes it easy. Not everyone wants to install or figure out how to use mintudpdate which is much more bloated for the purpose of installing a kernel than mainline! But to each his own, I see you promoting mintupdate all the time and know you love it, but that doesnt mean other solutions arent just as good or possibly better. To each his own. Some may just wanna download debs and install with apt, thats fine too, and certainly better, just not as easy. When one has the choice between "native" software in the official repos and software from a foreign source like a PPA, one should always select the "native" software. At least when they're more or less comparable in quality and ease of use. That's a golden rule of risk reduction. I think you probably haven't taken a look yet at the features of Bodhi's own mintupdate. As said: install mintupdate. Then launch it, and in its panel: Edit - Preferences - tab Expert. On that tab, enable all the dangers you like. Then close the Preferences, and do in the panel of mintupdate: Tools - Kernel Manager. Can't get more easy-peasy and GUI than that. So this is all you need for some good ole cowboy fun with mainline kernels (yeehaw!): sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends mintupdateBut, and I can't stress this enough: do it just for fun, on a dedicated PC for experiments, not on computers that you do your work on and that therefore need to run stable and reliable. And your "fatal mistakes" I've seen before but its full of exaturation and opinion. For example I've been using grub customizer for years and years and works fine for me (and is included in focal repos btw).. You may not like simple GUI apps. They are not FATAL as that implies it kills something. Not everything in your list is a MISTAKE. You're just trying to scare people into doing things your way, without realizing there are lots of ways to do the same thing, and your way is not better than others. When you present your way of doingthings as an alternative or idea or the way you do it, its fine, but I strongly dislike the way you critisize others or try to scare people with ancient information. Haha. So you're saying you don't like that page?  No worries, mate. It's not meant to be holy wisdom; it's only meant to be "best practice" guidance for Linux beginners. That's it and that's all. |
|
mimi
Member
Posts: 38
Likes: 28
|
Post by mimi on May 27, 2021 16:50:49 GMT
A couple of remarks. First of all, you don't need a foreign application from some PPA for installing mainline kernels. The Kernel Manager contained in Bodhi's mintupdate can do that as well (see the Expert tab in the Preferences of mintupdate). Have you used Bodhi's mintupdate ? If you have, you'll see that for generic kernels it only contains 5.8 and 5.4 series - that's a bit too limited a choice for me to have looked at. Yes, I agree with your warning about advising against using the untested mainline kernels, after I read this warning in mintupdate. However, it's not critical for me as I'm experimenting on a spare laptop - in the event that the mainline kernels did ever crash the system, it wouldn't matter at all. My philosophy is that one learns best through experimenting, as well as listening to others' experiences - if you're frightened to make mistakes, or afraid to appear foolish, you'll never learn anything ... |
|
kiezel
Crew Member
Posts: 143
Likes: 220
|
Post by kiezel on May 27, 2021 16:55:50 GMT
Have you used Bodhi's mintupdate ? As a matter of fact: yes <gasp! surprise!> If you have, you'll see that for generic kernels it only contains 5.8 and 5.4 series - that's a bit too limited a choice for me to have looked at. I repeat (see my previous message in this thread): Install mintupdate. Then launch it, and in its panel: Edit - Preferences - tab Expert. On that tab, enable all the dangers you like. Then close the Preferences, and do in the panel of mintupdate: Tools - Kernel Manager. Perhaps you omitted that last step. Yes, I agree with your warning about advising against using the untested mainline kernels, after I read this warning in mintupdate. However, it's not critical for me as I'm experimenting on a spare laptop - in the event that the mainline kernels did ever crash the system, it wouldn't matter at all. My philosophy is you learn through experimenting as well as listening to others' experiences - if you're frightened to make mistakes, or afraid to appear foolish, you'll never learn anything ... So true. |
|
mimi
Member
Posts: 38
Likes: 28
|
Post by mimi on May 27, 2021 18:37:17 GMT
kiezel Sorry mate, but you don't appear to have really understood what I was looking for, and then checked in mintupdate to see if it was there. As you saw in the in #1 of this thread, I was looking at a range of LTS kernels from 4.4 to 5.10. I agree these should ideally be generic for system stability, but only mainline ones seem to be available. The only generic LTS kernel available in mintupdate is 5.4, which is already preinstalled in BL6. There are only three others listed in mintupdate, being either mainline (5.12 & 5.11), or generic but not LTS (5.8). In this context, unfortunately the mintupdate app confers no advantage over the mainline app that enigma9o7 kindly proposed.
|
|
kiezel
Crew Member
Posts: 143
Likes: 220
|
Post by kiezel on May 27, 2021 18:44:40 GMT
kiezel Sorry mate, but you don't appear to have really understood what I was looking for, and then checked in mintupdate to see if it was there. As you saw in the in #1 of this thread, I was looking at a range of LTS kernels from 4.4 to 5.10. I agree these should ideally be generic for system stability, but only mainline ones seem to be available. The only generic LTS kernel available in mintupdate is 5.4, which is already preinstalled in BL6. There are only three others listed in mintupdate, being either mainline (5.12 & 5.11), or generic but not LTS (5.8). In this context, unfortunately the mintupdate app confers no advantage over the mainline app that enigma9o7 kindly proposed. Nope. You can also enable the long term supported mainline kernel series (4.4 - 5.10) on the Expert tab in the Preferences of mintupdate. It's a separate checkbox. |
|
mimi
Member
Posts: 38
Likes: 28
|
Post by mimi on May 27, 2021 20:11:00 GMT
Nope. You can also enable the long term supported mainline kernel series (4.4 - 5.10) on the Expert tab in the Preferences of mintupdate. It's a separate checkbox. I'm really confused here, as you were advising not to use the mainline kernel series (for valid reasons) in the mainline app, but now you're advising me to use the mainline kernel series, just in a different app (mintupdate) ... |
|
kiezel
Crew Member
Posts: 143
Likes: 220
|
Post by kiezel on May 27, 2021 20:34:40 GMT
Nope. You can also enable the long term supported mainline kernel series (4.4 - 5.10) on the Expert tab in the Preferences of mintupdate. It's a separate checkbox. I'm really confused here, as you were advising not to use the mainline kernel series (for valid reasons) in the mainline app, but now you're advising me to use the mainline kernel series, just in a different app (mintupdate) ... Of course I am not. As a rule, I'm definitely against installing mainline kernels of any kind. With any app on the face of this earth. Our discussion was about whether or not it's at all possible to install LTS mainline kernels with Bodhi's mintupdate. You claimed Bodhi's mintupdate couldn't do that; I proved you were wrong. My point is: if you wish to install mainline kernels anyway (LTS or non-LTS), don't use a PPA application for that when there's a fine application in the official Bodhi software sources that can do it as well. An additional advantage of using Bodhi's mintupdate for this, is the fact that there's a clear warning on the Expert tab. This should discourage casual use of that feature. |
|
enigma9o7
Crew Member
Posts: 1,427
Likes: 1,336
|
Post by enigma9o7 on May 28, 2021 4:52:57 GMT
This is opposite case of me. For most software I want to install, I check if there's a ppa first, cuz if so it's likelier got a newer version than ubuntu LTS repositories, which are known for having old versions of stuff. I'd imagine well over half the apps in my application menu were installed from ppa. Also granted I'm on bodhi 5.1 which is bionic based so lotta stuff now is so old its broken so ppa is the only option, but its not like bodhi 6 has been out that long yet, and even if i updated to that, focal repos are already a year old, I'd likely be using almost as many ppas anyway, whereas by using ppa's when available I have everything I want now already anyway.
|
|
mimi
Member
Posts: 38
Likes: 28
|
Post by mimi on May 28, 2021 5:40:36 GMT
kiezel Thanks for the ppa advice, and you do have some good advice. You are clearly very knowledgeable about Linux. However, it's just the way your advice is sometimes presented. My advice to you, and I only mean this in a helpful way, is can you try an adopt a gentler more supportive style (like others on the forum such as Hippytaff & ylee, etc), particularly to newcomers to Bodhi (like me). Your style may be providing good entertainment for others to watch, but it can be very off-putting for newcomers, and may even turn them away from the forum ... In future, please could you try and read posts more carefully, and understand what others have said, before trying to "prove" anyone "wrong" (your words). Sometimes you just seem to want to prove your point, before considering the person you're talking to. An example of this is that I said that the only generic LTS kernel available in mintupdate was 5.4; I didn't say LTS was unavailable in mintupdate (scroll back 3-4 posts), as you incorrectly asserted. Think about it and chew it over. Have a good day.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hippytaff on May 28, 2021 6:26:06 GMT
I’ve never really worried about having the newest packages. Never really seen the need unless there is a new feature I particularly need which I don’t think has ever happened yet.
|
|
