kiezel
Crew Member
Posts: 143
Likes: 220
|
Post by kiezel on May 13, 2021 12:46:22 GMT
Perhaps it's a good idea to disable recommended packages by default, when installing software. Linux Mint used to have that as default setting, up to and including the Mint 19.x series. It was only discarded in the Mint 20 series. For a minimalist distro like Bodhi, it might be an advantage to install additional software in a "mean and lean" way by default. Linux Mint used to do that by means of a file called 00recommends in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d, with the following content: APT::Install-Recommends "false";
Aptitude::Recommends-Important "false";
If a user would ever want to disable it, that's easy: he could simply nuke that file or do this: sudo sed -i 's/false/true/g' /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/00recommends
Note that you'd also need to change a setting in Synaptic, because Synaptic also contains an option for enabling/disabling recommends: In the panel of Synaptic: Settings - Preferences - tab General
Section Marking Changes: remove the tick for: Consider recommended packages as dependencies
Now this is not something that has only advantages. Which is why Linux Mint has discarded it. Namely: the features of the applications that you install yourself, might be reduced. And perhaps more importantly: some how-to's for Ubuntu, won't work then in your Bodhi. But Mint is far from a minimalist distro, so for minimalist Bodhi the scales might tip in favour of this restriction. What do you think?
|
|
|
|
Post by Hippytaff on May 13, 2021 15:35:46 GMT
That’s an interesting concept and certainly makes sense in the context of a minimalist distro. I wonder how much space on average this would actually save. Obviously that depends on a lot of different things. But as you say there are drawbacks, and a user can always choose to not install recommends when installing stuff. So I guess it’s an opt in or opt out kinda question, based on what we think most people who choose Bodhi, choose it for. Old hardware, minimalist base to build on without bloat etc.
I’m not going to offer my opinion because I’m a coward, also I’m on the fence, but I like the thinking!
|
|
enigma9o7
Crew Member
Posts: 1,427 
Likes: 1,336
|
Post by enigma9o7 on May 13, 2021 22:34:39 GMT
When trying a new app I don't always know what I need, so I use whatever's recommended, so like that as default for myself. If I do want the absolute minimum to get the app to run tho, I always have to look up the syntax of the no install recommends option, since I do it so rarely...
|
|
kiezel
Crew Member
Posts: 143
Likes: 220
|
Post by kiezel on May 14, 2021 8:31:47 GMT
I agree that it's something that needs careful consideration. Note that the risk of this restriction isn't big, though: after all, Linux Mint has had it by default for probably over a decade. That didn't stop it from thriving. I can't find the discussion within the Mint dev team that led to discarding this restriction in Mint 20; the release announcement of Mint 20 only contains this single line about that: See: www.linuxmint.com/rel_ulyana_cinnamon_whatsnew.php(under the header "System improvements"). The main reason is probably, as I said, that with this restriction, using a guide or tutorial for Ubuntu will not always give you the desired outcome. Note that you'd also need to change a setting in Synaptic, because Synaptic also contains an option for enabling/disabling recommends:
In the panel of Synaptic: Settings - Preferences - tab General
Section Marking Changes: remove the tick for: Consider recommended packages as dependencies
I'll add this to my first posting in this thread. |
|
|
|
Post by ylee on May 15, 2021 1:57:06 GMT
I have considered that myself for some time actually. Already knew how to do it. My main concern is the reliance on package managers to get it right and do something sane with it. It could be the case something is in the recommended section of the control file but is really needed for the full functionality of the app in question. Not all stuff is packaged right. I look at deb files a lot and in some cases may not agree with their choices as to what is needed and what is recommended and what is suggested. I also see deb files that are flat-out packaged wrong or sloppily. I know you are a Mint user take a random selection of Linux Mint deb files and run lintian on them. Go to launchpad and pick a random selection of PPAs and grab their deb files and do the same. In a perfect world, there would be no lintian errors or warnings. It may be true some don't matter but again some do. Package managers are ppl and they do not always get it right and they may not always do it as professionally as perhaps they should. Debian is pretty strict about it Ubuntu less so and Mint and many PPAs I think are only going for the "it installed, didn't it" philosophy.
Regardless I always install stuff with that option myself. But I do not just automatically hit enter right off the bat. I investigate what the recommended packages are whether I think I think I want them. Might end up googling a couple of them to see what the heck they are. But the more I mess with Bodhi and packages in general the more and more packages I recognize ...
But anyway the Mythological Average User is not going to put any thought into it they are going to use synaptic and apt and whatever it installs they are going to think is needed and necessary. But they are also going to think the app is fully functional and perhaps wonder why Help in the menu does not work when yelp was not installed. Yelp needed for that for many gnome apps as well as yelp usually being in the recommended section of most of them. And if they installed the same app in another distro and Help worked they are going to either think Bodhi is in some way broken or be on our forums or discord channel asking about it.
All in all my thoughts have leaned towards leaving as it is, Ubuntu defaults as I call it. But advising users to install via --no-install-recommends esp in cases where it matters a lot. And explaining things like yelp or other packages they may or may not want. I don't ever want yelp and in fact, I hide it in the moksha-menu package which Moksha uses for its default menu. Bodhi users do not need to see that in the menu if it ends up installed anyway. You want to see it edit moksha-menu on your hard drive or install or create another menu.
But as has been said leaving it as it defaults to improves the utilities of existing guides and tutorials for Ubuntu. It is common advice to give newcomers: "google it for Ubuntu and in many cases if not most that will also work on Bodhi." I must confess I like users that figure out their own problems. Bodhi undoubtedly has many users we never hear from even long-term users, some have said as much in the msg associated with a donation. The first time learning about them was because they gave us 25 dollars in march and said they have been using Bodhi for 8 years and love it. I want to keep that google for ubuntu and it probably works for Bodhi thing working as best as I can.
And one more thought ... what works for Mint in terms of things like this and more may or may not be a good idea for Bodhi. Mint has a huge community of passionate users some even frantical and tribal about it. I see their comments bashing Ubuntu or Debian all over the internet, now admittedly Mint has did a great job in what they do. I remember when the distro started and i saw it grow. But lets be real to a user like me there is 0 advantage to Mint as opposed to either Ubuntu or Debian. Now I am not putting Mint down for the Fanatical Zeal of these users, it is not the Mint Devs fault. But i don't see that tribalistic Zeal in Bodhi users. Today on a facebook linux group a user ask what would be a good distro for some low resource machine. He listed the specs, in the answers a few suggested Bodhi. But it was not a screw Freespire Bodhi is the best kinda way. Yet in this same thread some Mint users were suggesting Mint and making unreasonable and untrue claims as to its superiority over some of the other choices. Mint was not the best solution here sorry you are wrong. Seriously the arch user telling you to install arch and installing some tiling window manager had a better answer than Mint there. Assuming you know enough about linux to pull that off I am sure it would have did great on those specs. Now as to this thread I just looked to see if Bodhi was in the answers and as it was I went on without commenting at all.
In a thread like that there really is no right answer there were several good suggestions, some might do as well or better than Bodhi. Clearly I would go with Bodhi rather than a stripped down open box or some lightweight tiling window manager. And I would also want systemd and none of the non systemd suggestions. Same for pulse audio. Sure a system without those would be lighter but it fails to meet what I want out of a distro. But all that is my preferences, my needs and my workflow.
For the record I don't bash any distro, even that Windows look alike distro. lol. I got first hand knowledge of what it takes to make and maintain a distro or create a window manager.
My point here is many mint users are going to hang with Mint no matter what. The mint devs could dump a bunch of broken deb files in their repos that broke ppl installs and still not lose many users. Bodhi is not like that, sure we have our die hards but few are 'religious' about it. If we break things or it fails to meet ppls need we lose users. They go on to another distro or Window manager. And our user base is much smaller.
|
|
kiezel
Crew Member
Posts: 143
Likes: 220
|
Post by kiezel on May 15, 2021 10:33:09 GMT
ylee That's a carefully considered decision. I suppose you're right. Breaking compatibility with upstream how-to's is no small disadvantage. And there's also the matter of sloppy packaging, which is perhaps a considerable risk with stuff in community-maintained repo's like Ubuntu's Universe repo. Nevertheless, I think it's a good idea to advertize --no-install-recommends, on this forum and in documentation. It certainly helps me to keep my Bodhi "mean and lean". 
|
|
|
|
Post by Hippytaff on May 15, 2021 10:40:21 GMT
...Nevertheless, I think it's a good idea to advertize --no-install-recommends, on this forum and in documentation. It certainly helps me to keep my Bodhi "mean and lean". Good call. Maybe it’s something we could add to the wiki and or quick start guide. |
|
|
|
Post by ylee on May 15, 2021 17:28:36 GMT
...Nevertheless, I think it's a good idea to advertize --no-install-recommends, on this forum and in documentation. It certainly helps me to keep my Bodhi "mean and lean". Good call. Maybe it’s something we could add to the wiki and or quick start guide. It is all a matter of time and manpower. I have a small list of wiki articles I would like to add and some improvements to the QS I would love to see. It will happen all in due time, I slowly do check things off of the various Bodhi to-do lists I maintain. Of course I add things also to those list so it is always a never ending battle. I miss the days of Otterman running our Documentation Team, he was always very active. Perhaps in time another person will come and fill that role. Otterman's lose was sad day in Bodhi's history as was his later demise  |
|
|
|
Post by Hippytaff on May 15, 2021 17:46:44 GMT
Yeah, he was very on top of the docs and a good laugh on irc I seem to remember. We did have a doc guy but he’s disappeared.
|
|
