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Post by archaem on Nov 17, 2020 22:42:56 GMT
Hello, as the subject of this post indicates: this message has been submitted from a computer running on Bodhi Linux 32bit Legacy. Specifically, the computer is comprised of parts that are nearly ~20 yrs old with a total of 512MB. Anyone who has operated older computers will note that the machines tend to struggle when accessing the contemporary Internet because contemporary websites are packed with scripts that consume a ridiculous amount of -- in many cases -- unneccessary resources as required to process their havesting of vistor data. However the purpose of this post is not to opine about the contemporary Internet. The purpose of this post is to demonstrate that the contemporary Internet *can* be accessed successfully on computers that are ~20 years old.
The IBM T40 with 512MB of RAM that this post is being typed on has accessed the Internet in four cases, and if anyone is interested, more details on these cases can be provided. In summary (given the specifications of this particular machine) the following details standout:
WEB BROWSER:
GNOME (Default 5.1 32bit Legacy) Browser:
- The GNOME Browser (apparently the default web browsing application in Bodhi Linux 5.1 32bit Legacy), struggles to display the content websites;
Midori Browser:
- fortunately, the Midori web browsing application successfully displayed websites -- as many as 3 or 4 tabs -- prior to the application collapsing due to constraints on the relationship between resource availability and resource consumption. In other words, eventually the web browser seems to consume resources beyond the computer's availability, eventually knocking out the application. NOTE (for those curious): The Midori browser was able to open YouTube after about just over a minute.
TEXT BROWSER:
Lynx Browser:
- the first text-based web browser tested on this machine (IBM T40 from early 2000s with 512RAM) was the Lynx browser. Putting the learning-curve associated with this browser aside (to use the browser effectively one must learn the commands and tweaks available in the numerous help and manual pages which requires more than a few minues), the primary issue with this text browser was its inability (deliberately designed) to *not display* HTML 4 tables according to their intended layout. Considering the Bodhi Forum is built with a table structure, navigating the forum was a troublesome if not hopeless endeavour. The "troublesome" aspect is doubtful considering the tool used to access the forum was a text browser and "troubles" were expected. Therefore, it's more appropriate to describe as a hopeless or fruitless task;
Links Browser:
- after lengthy tests, the primary factor to consider between Links and Lynx -- besides their respective help and manual pages and differences in layout -- is the manner in which they display webpages. Links, unlike Lynx, *does* display HTML table structures, thereby enabling effective browsing of the Bodhi Forum, as demonstrated by this here post;
Links2
- Links2 is distinct from Links by the fact that Links2 *can* display images. Admittedly, browsing the Internet with the Links2 browser on a near decades old machine is quite an enjoyable experience.
***
Keep in mind that the three text browsers mentioned above operate within the terminal (Bodhi's "Terminology" applicaiton).
Recognizing that the text-based browsers consume minial resources relative to "normal" browsers, multiple applications can operate alongside the browser given that the additional applications also consume minimal resources.
Primary Takeaway:
The Links and Links2 browsers combined with Bodhi Linux 32bit Legacy can reinvigorate old computers, especially considering access to the Internet has been noted as the primary factor restricting folks from using their older machines. Sure, the Internet "feels" differently while browsing with Links and Links2, however keeping in mind the discussion here is about an early 2000s computer running on *512MB* of RAM and accessing the Internet in 2020, it's fair to say Bodhi's 32bit Legacy and the Links/2 browser is an awesome combination!
Note: this message is not arguing Links/2 is better than Lynx. As mentioned above, the two browsers are *different* and each have their strengths. While Lynx arguably has a steeper learning curve than Links, Lynx seems to offer the user more options in terms of customization. And again, the fact that Lynx does not display HTML 4 table structures nor images is *not* a hinderance to the application considering the designers intend this distinct aspect of their application.
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Post by archaem on Nov 17, 2020 22:58:14 GMT
Hello again, unfortunately there is no "edit post" option visible from this Links browser hence the auto-reply. Nevertheless, here are a few additional items to the above:
1. The Links/2 browser/s have enabled the mouse as an input device whereas Lynx does not permit the mouse as an input device without significant configuration.
2. Attaching images failed. There are a few images taken of how the Bodhi forum appears from the Links Browser, however the process for uploading those images has thus far been elusive.
While the above message might appear as a product review of the Lynx and Links/2 browsers (and it arguably can be considered as such) those product reviews are determined by Bodhi32Legacy. Product reviews aside, the intended purpose of these messages has been to articulate the effectiveness of text browsers when running on Bodhi32Legacy which can drastically enhance the overall user experience due to providing the user with an option to *optimally* access the Internet while using a "slow" or "old" computer.
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enigma9o7
Crew Member
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Post by enigma9o7 on Nov 18, 2020 6:51:01 GMT
I have a 512mb pc running bodhi-legacy, and strongly recommend palemoon with one or two tabs max. Don't run anything in the background you don't absolutely need; even nm-applet takes like 5M of precious memory etc. If you want to use sites like like youtube, dont expect more than 360p in a browser. Use smtube/etc for 720p video. Set your useragent to mobile and and you'll get much better performance cuz they wont put soo many videos on the screen at once. If you want to use gmail, set it to the html version. The regular version takes 200mb+ memory so unless its your only tab its unusable. You basically need to watch your memory constantly and learn what type of websites use ridiculous memory and find alternatives or close all other tabs when using them, i.e. google maps. Use text and mobile alternatives to websites where they exist... for example m.cnn.com for news is far far faster than regular cnn.com.
Also, ads waste resources! But so do ad blockers. I'd still recommend using ublock origin with palemoon tho. Dont use adblock plus with firefox, that plugin alone takes like 100mb. However, an alternative is to edit hosts file which takes zero memory, there are examples available online, that have the majority of adservers/etc blocked, but I couldn't find an autoupdater for linux so the file can get stale and need to be updated to block latest ads. (updaters exist for android and windows however....).
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Post by thewaiter on Nov 18, 2020 9:35:58 GMT
Hello there
It is very interesting to read someone tries to run Bodhi on that minimal HW sources. You are really on HW limits so Enigmas tips are great to take into account. My idea after reading your posts is, how did you install Bodhi? Did you create also a swap partition (at least twice RAM size)? If no, do that, because in case of mem exceeded by any app, it will swap data to HDD. It is not fast but it could help. I warmly recommend upgrade your RAM for better performance if possible. That old RAM panels could be possible to buy at good price.
If you will succeed, I would like to use your setup as great promo for our distro in my upcoming video for BL 6.
Stefan
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Post by fidoedidoe on Nov 18, 2020 10:14:20 GMT
I have a 512mb pc running bodhi-legacy, and strongly recommend palemoon with one or two tabs max. Don't run anything in the background you don't absolutely need; even nm-applet takes like 5M of precious memory etc. If you want to use sites like like youtube, dont expect more than 360p in a browser. Use smtube/etc for 720p video. Set your useragent to mobile and and you'll get much better performance cuz they wont put soo many videos on the screen at once. If you want to use gmail, set it to the html version. The regular version takes 200mb+ memory so unless its your only tab its unusable. You basically need to watch your memory constantly and learn what type of websites use ridiculous memory and find alternatives or close all other tabs when using them, i.e. google maps. Use text and mobile alternatives to websites where they exist... for example m.cnn.com for news is far far faster than regular cnn.com.
Also, ads waste resources! But so do ad blockers. I'd still recommend using ublock origin with palemoon tho. Dont use adblock plus with firefox, that plugin alone takes like 100mb. However, an alternative is to edit hosts file which takes zero memory, there are examples available online, that have the majority of adservers/etc blocked, but I couldn't find an autoupdater for linux so the file can get stale and need to be updated to block latest ads. (updaters exist for android and windows however....).
There's some good information above and in the posts published by archaem . Assuming neither of you have any objections (no reply implies approval), I will take the key points from both posts with a view to incorporating into a "Bodhi Linux minimal spec FAQ" (or similar - TBD). The thought being to capture real world experience such as this for the benefit of others. Many thanks for posting!! |
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Post by fidoedidoe on Nov 18, 2020 11:01:19 GMT
My idea after reading your posts is, how did you install Bodhi? Did you create also a swap partition (at least twice RAM size)? If no, do that, because in case of mem exceeded by any app, it will swap data to HDD Hey thewaiter , I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert in this area and as such I've been trying to read around this subject. Currently my (limited) understanding is: Starting from Ubuntu 18.04 (?) the OS now uses a swap file instead of swap partition. It will continue to use a swap partition if present, but having one is no longer necessary (ie to use more RAM than the physical system limit). This came to light when I was updating/verifying the minimal spec c/w install instructions (on the wiki), where using a defined HDD swap partition vs not during installation (implies use of swap file?) became a moot point. My findings were based on variations of small memory footprint. The smallest success story being a 512MB VM. The install was definitively easier (no need to create swap partition) and somewhat subjectively "felt" smother without a swap partition (albeit slow). As such - I've rightly / wrongly (please correct me as needed), I've updated the wiki ( install / systems requirements) and removed all references to creating a swap partition during install - the last remnants simply say: |
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Post by thewaiter on Nov 18, 2020 13:06:12 GMT
Hmm good point Fido I had to look at some web info because I had data from Ubuntu 16.04. I did not know it changed since 17.04. If I read carrefuly, you need to enable one of those methods. Swap partion, swap file (probably both?). Swap partition is created during the install process while swap file can be enabled later. But it HAS TO be enabled. It is not enabled by default. Maybe I am not right at this point. I am no expert as well on this area so take this as my personal info. From what I read the swap file is easier to resize while swap partion is faster. We have to take some time and make some serious research for the Bodhi doc. askubuntu.com/questions/904372/swap-partition-vs-swap-fileStefan |
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Post by fidoedidoe on Nov 18, 2020 13:24:53 GMT
Hmm good point Fido I had to look at some web info because I had data from Ubuntu 16.04. I did not know it changed since 17.04. If I read carrefuly, you need to enable one of those methods. Swap partion, swap file (probably both?). Swap partition is created during the install process while swap file can be enabled later. But it HAS TO be enabled. It is not enabled by default. Maybe I am not right at this point. I am no expert as well on this area so take this as my personal info. From what I read the swap file is easier to resize while swap partion is faster. We have to take some time and make some serious research for the Bodhi doc. askubuntu.com/questions/904372/swap-partition-vs-swap-fileStefan Agreed lets research further and create a definitive statement on the Wiki. That said as I've tested with 512MB VM clean install (no swap partition is created, no swap file defined during installation), that a swap file is created by default - although to what spec remains the open question. Personally I feel when Bodhi 6 is launched - I'd lean towards what is considered default behaviour for Ubuntu 20.04 (ie on a clean install - no swap partition is created by the installer and only swap file is used). I'd then create special case documentation for the edge cases (like: minimum spec setups, if needed), the thought being for the majority of people using Bodhi swap partition or swap file is indistinguishable (so go with default). |
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Post by fidoedidoe on Nov 18, 2020 14:07:54 GMT
I have a 512mb pc running bodhi-legacy, and strongly recommend palemoon with one or two tabs max. Don't run anything in the background you don't absolutely need; even nm-applet takes like 5M of precious memory etc. If you want to use sites like like youtube, dont expect more than 360p in a browser. Use smtube/etc for 720p video. Set your useragent to mobile and and you'll get much better performance cuz they wont put soo many videos on the screen at once. If you want to use gmail, set it to the html version. The regular version takes 200mb+ memory so unless its your only tab its unusable. You basically need to watch your memory constantly and learn what type of websites use ridiculous memory and find alternatives or close all other tabs when using them, i.e. google maps. Use text and mobile alternatives to websites where they exist... for example m.cnn.com for news is far far faster than regular cnn.com.
Also, ads waste resources! But so do ad blockers. I'd still recommend using ublock origin with palemoon tho. Dont use adblock plus with firefox, that plugin alone takes like 100mb. However, an alternative is to edit hosts file which takes zero memory, there are examples available online, that have the majority of adservers/etc blocked, but I couldn't find an autoupdater for linux so the file can get stale and need to be updated to block latest ads. (updaters exist for android and windows however....).
There's some good information above and in the posts published by archaem . Assuming neither of you have any objections (no reply implies approval), I will take the key points from both posts with a view to incorporating into a "Bodhi Linux minimal spec FAQ" (or similar - TBD). The thought being to capture real world experience such as this for the benefit of others. Many thanks for posting!! FYI - As mentioned above, I have made a start on the wiki page ( link). I'll expand in due course - if you have any objections to being quoted or your comments being used please let me know at the earliest opportunity. Obviously any recommendation for change/improvement will be welcomed. |
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enigma9o7
Crew Member
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 1,097
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Post by enigma9o7 on Nov 18, 2020 17:33:58 GMT
My only thought is if you are putting anything I said in a wiki, perhaps verify my numbers first, they were all just estimates (based on experience), but might be worth actually testing before printing somewhere official.... maybe gmail takes 350mb or 150mb not 200mb for example (but whatever it is, its ridiculously slow until you switch to legacy html version!)
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Post by thewaiter on Nov 18, 2020 19:34:22 GMT
OK, I asked e devs for comparison of swap partition vs swap file. This is our IRC chat: <the_waiter> Guys, can somebody make a comparison between swap partition vs swap file? <the_waiter> related to performance <raster> well swap file has to go through the fs layer to read/write then to block layer ..
<raster> where swap partition skips the fs layer in the kernel<the_waiter> so swap partition is more effective... <raster> well more efficient <raster> less flexible <the_waiter> I have noticed swap file was added since Ubuntu 17.10 <the_waiter> I thought it is more modern, thus more effective <the_waiter> maybe the benefit is with easier file resizing <the_waiter> anyway thx for answer <the_waiter> I will quote you raster on our wiki pages  <raster> easier resizing
<raster> can easily remove swap file when not needed\partition stays and uses disk space until you repartition
<raster> which is messyMaybe this will help us Stefan EDIT: raster is an Enlightenment leader dev |
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Post by Hippytaff on Nov 18, 2020 19:43:26 GMT
That's interesting, so it seems a swap file would be better for a low resource system as it can be removed if necessary, whereas a swap partition will eat up memory regardless? This is all new to me lol |
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Post by thewaiter on Nov 18, 2020 19:47:38 GMT
I think it subjective. On low spec PC you have to consider what method is more efficient.
Less HDD space = use swap file
Less RAM space = use swap partition (it should be faster in performance)
Less BOTH = ?
This really needs some testings. Not sure if VM is a good idea...
S
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Post by Hippytaff on Nov 18, 2020 20:05:32 GMT
Hmmm... this is a good document on the subject.I think a VM would be ok to test on as it replicates a hdd, so should behave much the same way!? though I think the difference in performance of the two is pretty academic and probably not that noticable in the "real world." |
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Post by thewaiter on Nov 18, 2020 20:14:58 GMT
Exactly, I am not aware of any measure tool for making a real and objective comparison.
S
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